November 30, 2021, 08:08:39 PM
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September 29, 2021, 08:40:16 PM
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PS571


Hello everyone... new to the group.. sorry if this is already posted..

On my 2016, I have no power... I turn the ignition on and there is nothing besides the red security light flashing. I changed the battery in the fob, still nothing. Had the battery tested, still a good battery. Any thoughts? {=

September 29, 2021, 09:09:10 PM
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HDBitchin

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@PS571 welcome to the forum.

Might want to look at fuses. The Maxi fuse aka the Main fuse might be bad.

Also the BCM can shut down everything. It controls Fuel Pump Power, Running Light Power, System Power, Front Running/Light Power and Accessory Power.

The below Video talks about a Softail but the BCM is on Touring motorcycles with the CAN bus as well.

HDBitchin aka Tank

When shopping for anything look for Made in the USA and save American jobs and families


October 02, 2021, 10:04:35 AM
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NoSuperSlabs

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Any news @PS571 ?
Two Lane Highway

October 05, 2021, 09:08:27 PM
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bc45

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@HDBitchin it seams like we are getting a rash of this symptom on the can bus bikes. does the manual you have say it the BCM is looking for a resistance change or just a closed or open at the two wires at the ignition switch? 

Any update @PS571

October 05, 2021, 11:39:55 PM
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HDBitchin

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@bc45

I will dig into the manual tomorrow and post what I find.
HDBitchin aka Tank

When shopping for anything look for Made in the USA and save American jobs and families


October 06, 2021, 07:15:18 AM
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bc45

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@HDBitchin  Larry I found a diagram on line but it prints bad so its hard to fallow the wires. And on screen it is small. What I can see is that the two pins at the switch in the off position should be open circuit, in ACC they should have 800 ohms. In ON they should have 200 ohms. With what I have I cant trace from there what all ties in but if I go to the BCM it looks like the BL/G is ground pin G4 and the W/BE is signal pin C3. the Can high is Pin D2 , Can low is E2. So it doesn't look like the switch is on the Can line directly.
 So If you were able to get a 200 ohm resistor (I hate Radio Shack going out of business) you could unplug the the switch and jumper them  with a 200 ohm resistor and BCM should think switch is on.
After the wedding this week end I still have 3 days off if I get time Ill try to do some testing to see what kind of signal is on the Ignition signal line.
Let me know what you find out.
 
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October 06, 2021, 12:49:55 PM
Reply #6
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HDBitchin

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@bc45

Reading my 2015 Touring manual which is likely very much the same as the OP's 2016 Ultra the manual says the following about the BCM (we know this is the BCM function but it is worth repeating IMO)...

Quote
The BCM is located under the left side cover. The BCM supplies ignition and accessory power to most of the vehicle and controls the power mode of the electrical system. It controls lighting and other outputs by using switches as inputs. The BCM is also connected to the CAN bus and shares information with the other modules.

You are correct about what you said about the resistor values. Doing what you said would eliminate the ignition switch and the ignition wiring to wiring the BCM if power is restored and the bike starts. Here is what the manual says...

Quote
Ignition Switch The BCM provides and monitors a voltage signal to the ignition switch, which is an open circuit in the OFF position. The ignition switch routes the signal through a 200 Ohm resistor to ground in the IGN position or through a 800 Ohm resistor to ground in the ACC position. The difference in resistance in the ignition switch informs the BCM of the switch position.

An up and running CAN bus should read 2.5 VDC on either the High or Low bus wire to ground. The manual says this... The (W/R) is the CAN bus high circuit and the (W/BK) is the CAN bus low circuit. Both circuits show around 2.5V when measured between each of the circuits and ground with the IGN ON.

Some wiring diagrams are attached.
HDBitchin aka Tank

When shopping for anything look for Made in the USA and save American jobs and families


October 08, 2021, 06:17:28 PM
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NoSuperSlabs

Supporting Member
The original poster @PS571 has been absent for more than a week, I don’t think he cares.
Two Lane Highway

October 08, 2021, 08:09:08 PM
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PS571


Hi guys! Thanks. Sorry, forgot I even posted this. It is my dads bike, it was the ECM. We took it took it to Harley.

October 08, 2021, 08:21:04 PM
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bc45

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The original poster @PS571 has been absent for more than a week, I don’t think he cares.


@NoSuperSlabs  We have had another one recently also, the point of asking and trying to figure out what we are able to test with out having a scanner that can communicate with the modules may be of use in the future on Bikes with the same issue.
I also want to know for my own personnel knowledge. Looking at the diagram Larry posted and the resistance values in the ign switch is almost the same as the early 2000 GM PassLock syatem. 
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October 09, 2021, 07:18:49 AM
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HDBitchin

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I agree with @bc45 . As said, all is not lost when a member doesn’t come back and participate. In some cases we can push on as was done here to answer the possibilities. Knowledge is good to share even when the original poster is missing.
HDBitchin aka Tank

When shopping for anything look for Made in the USA and save American jobs and families


October 12, 2021, 03:49:17 PM
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bc45

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 I got time to play with the voltages at the ignition switch today. These measurement's are taken on a 2016 FLHTK. I did not have time to do it on the 2014 or the 2018 sportster's in the garage but I would gamble they would be the same.
I used straight pins to back probe the connector when it was plugged in and regular back probe pins when un plugged.
https://hdbitchin.com/gallery/5/329-121021144722-56161021.jpeg
No power to bike

If you look the pin goes into the back side of the connector between the weather pack seal and wire, also notice how tight a bend the wire harness bends at the connector. I wonder if this is causing internal breakage of wires at this point.
https://hdbitchin.com/gallery/5/329-121021144656-56151144.jpeg
No power to bike

First I unhooked the connector and OHM tested from the g/b wire to Batt negative, it had 1.9 ohms. seams a little high to me but it is working and on most cars most PCM grounds are listed as under 5 ohms so I will call it good.
https://hdbitchin.com/gallery/5/329-121021144628-56131862.jpeg
No power to bike

with connector unplugged the white /Blue signal wire had 3.74 volts
https://hdbitchin.com/gallery/5/329-121021144616-56122480.jpeg
No power to bike

With connector plugged into the switch back probe white / blue  green/black
ign off 3.75 volts
ign on 1.27 volts
Acc 3.8 volts
something interesting happens when you turn the switch to off, the voltage goes up to 11.22 volts then after 20 sec drops to 3.75 volts.
Did test with Bike running
on position 1.3 volts
off voltage 11.6 volt after 20 sec dropped to 3.75 volts.
It is real tight to back probe the signal circuit I had to unplug the switch to install the back probe then plug the switch back in. It might be easier to test at the BCM pins depending on location. If the voltage dose not change at the BCM  you would need to go to the switch to see if proper voltage was getting there. If voltage does change properly it is not the switch or signal or ground wire to the switch.   
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November 08, 2021, 10:02:47 AM
Reply #12
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HDBitchin

Administrator
Continuing the BCM and HD-LAN (CAN) bus discussion here is the best description I have found describing the CAN Bus aka the HD-LAN.

https://california-motorcycles.com/en/blogs/mecanicaharley/el-sistema-de-comunicaciones-can-bus-de-harley-davidson-hdlan

Just in case this web page goes away here is the text of the page…

Quote

The Harley-Davidson Can-Bus Communications System: HDLAN
March 23, 2017
In this article we will try to explain in a simple way the latest Harley-Davidson communication system, the HDLAN.
This new technology will allow the entire H-D range to have ABS brakes, less wiring and the elimination of the ignition key, among other improvements.

Internet inside your motorcycle
One of the first questions you may ask yourself when hearing about the communications system is, why does a motorcycle need this? The answer must be found in the technological evolution to which automotive brands have been forced in recent years in order to reduce emissions and comply with increasingly demanding regulations and at the same time improve safety standards and driving quality .
With the adoption of electronic injection, it is necessary for the different sensors and actuators to communicate with the ECM or control unit of the vehicle.
This communication occurs in digital language, that is, with “zeros and ones”, just like our personal computer or a tablet does.

harley-davidson can bus communications

Let's give a simple example:
-The pilot operates the left turn signal switch.
-The handlebar button module sends the message "flashing button activated" to the network.
-The BCM (electric controller) reads this message and energizes the indicators on the indicated side, it also searches for the speedometer signal and also that of the inclination sensor, thus determining how long the indicator will remain on.
-At the same time, the speedometer also reads the message and turns on the dashboard indicator light.
All these messages are sent through a cable, called the “Data Bus”, which is a kind of Internet inside the motorcycle, which allows the modules to communicate with each other.

HDLAN
Until 2011 the communications protocol used 1 cable and was based on the J1850 standard. As of this year, a faster protocol, with 2 communication cables, the HDLAN, based on the CAN BUS automotive standard, was used in the Softail models and later in the Dyna family.

how can bus harley-davidson works

In order not to get lost in technical details, imagine that J1850 is like Internet based on the RTB telephone line, old and very slow. On the other hand, CAN BUS would be like ADSL, faster and more modern.

Using the HDLAN (Harley-Davidson Local Area Network) communication system has several advantages:
-Higher data speed
-More security against data loss
-Reduction to the minimum expression of the wiring, relays and fuses on the motorcycle

bcm harley-davidson control unit how it works

-More compact and unified modules
-Improved diagnostic ability

harley-davidson electronic electrical diagnostics

The heart of the system is the BCM, a module that receives power directly from the battery.

harley-davidson can bus bcm module

In previous models of this system, if we pressed the horn button for example, what we did was connect the battery power with the horn so that it would sound. Electricity went from the battery to the button on the handlebar running through the entire bike and then back down from the button to the horn.
With HDLAN, when we press this button, what happens is that it is “published on the Internet of the motorcycle” that we want the horn to sound, so the BCM reads the message and sends electricity directly to the horn to make it sound.

harley-davidson communication system j1850

There is no more electricity going up and down the handlebars to activate it, just a message. This applied to the entire electrical system of the motorcycle means that all the modules (Speedometer, ABS, BCM, ECM or control unit, Radio ...) can communicate with each other, obtaining superior performance and reliability.

harley-davidson hdlan communications system

Improvements such as those that have appeared in the Sportster models such as the possibility of knowing the revolutions or the gear at which we circulate on the odometer, the introduction of ABS, the disappearance of the ignition key and the optimization of the battery compartment are possible thanks to this technology.

conclusion
It is evident that the owners of Custom models are not the biggest fans of technological sophistication, but knowing that it will inevitably involve our lives (and our motorcycle), it is at least comfortable to know that in some cases it is used to simplify complex systems, making them at the same time safer and more reliable. This magical mixture of Old School & New Technologies is produced, which will keep us rolling free and better communicated.

Frank burguera



HDBitchin aka Tank

When shopping for anything look for Made in the USA and save American jobs and families


 




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